How to Lose Friends and Influence Nobody

I still think you're underestimating the variety of things you can do with the written word.

You're right, there are a bunch of ways to approach any topic. But the majority of them won't get seen in the online world unless they create an immediate emotional response.

The keyword here is emotional and I'd agree with that to a point (if "intellectually stimulating" can be described as an emotion).

So really, it's best to write conflict. To be conflict. Nobody wants to listen heads nodding in agreement. They want a clash of wills.

I don't think this follows. Consider for example, "The Lamb" by William Blake. There is, to my mind, absolutely no conflict in this canonical poem. There is tension, but not conflict.

And lately, I, personally, have been thinking about whether or not a conflict-less novel is possible. I think it is.

The title of the article pretty much says it all, especially the second half.

Drat....see what happens when you don't know the full context....you end up citing Blake when you should be talking about the MPAA.

Anyone else have any thoughts on burningion's contentious claims about writing in this article?

And seriously, if he's right, what do you do when, to reference Jane's Addiction, nothing is shocking?

Is that when we need to start sitting in front of our freezers eating Ben & Jerry's? Or should we start teaching the Marquis de Sade to high school kids in creative writing classes so that they can be more adept at "shock and awe" techniques?

First of all, I didn't call you any names, burningion.

Secondly, every comment I made in your previous article revolved around whether it was necessary or appropriate for you to mention the number in your deleted article. I gave my opinion as to why that article may have been reported off, but that was conjecture, as I'd not read the first one. I asked you at least twice to give a synopsis of what you had written so that I could make a better judgment.

Your article (the 2nd one) consisted of you accusing Newsvine of censoring you. It was made quite clear by no less than Mike D. himself that that had been done by the community, not by Newsvine staff, and you have every right to go to staff and ask that it be reinstated. I left at least one if not two comments asking if you had done that, and you never responded. Have you done that? I for one would like to see what you wrote there that obviously pissed some people off. It must have been a real humdinger. It must have really made some people think.

If you want to fight the good fight against the DMCA and the MPAA and all those other acronyms, go right ahead. Write some articles containing what you think of them. Get a discussion going about them. But if you expected people to engage you in a discussion about this issue by accusing the Newsvine staff of censoring you, when the community knows that not to be the case; by posting an article in which the 2nd sentence says:

I posted a number which may possibly have been illegal.

and then jumping on the bandwagon when other users pointed out that it may not have been illegal, or that its illegality was questionable at best and by calling all Newsvine members who had left comments alluding to its illegality lazy, even though you yourself clearly did not know whether it was or wasn't when you wrote the article and hadn't done the research you yourself told other people they should have done before commenting, then you clearly, as I commented, underestimate this community.

Wow, I can't believe I maintained control of that sentence! (pats self on back)

They also took down my post before bothering to figure out whether it was really illegal or not.

Did you bother to figure that out before you wrote the first article? Or the second one?

Burningion, I posted numerous detailed comments in your original article, none of which you responded to. I also posted numerous comments in Belarius's spin-off article discussing the legality question using the EFF's opinion paper as a jumping off point, a thread in which you have not made an appearance. You state quite clearly here that your goal was to piss people off. And it's clear you don't care to get involved in any actual discussions of the legality issue. If you do decide to get involved in that discussion go to Belarius's thread and join in.

As for your argument here, it is basically "The extreme always makes an impression." Hey it's a great line from a classic teen movie, but it's not a good rule for interacting with other adults. The extreme gets you ignored and marginalized in real life.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28771

Last Friday at 4 p.m., Mark Wesley, 46, a resident of Overland Park's exclusive Maple Bluff subdivision, heard the sound of "animal-like shrieking" coming from the vicinity of his front lawn. Upon opening his front door, he was greeted by the sight of a pale and shirtless Manson carving a pentagram into his chest with a razor blade.

"Look at me, suburban dung," Manson told Wesley. "Does this shock you?"

When Wesley replied no, he said Manson became "petulant." Recalled Wesley: "He started stamping his feet and shaking his fists, saying, 'What do you mean no? Aren't your uptight, puritanical sensibilities offended? Don't you want to censor me so you don't have to confront the ugly truth I represent?' So I say, 'Well, not particularly.' Then, after a long pause, he says, 'Well, screw you, jerk!' and walks off sulking."

Thanks for the laugh, Brian. I live about a block from Overland Park.

That was hilarious, Brian.

Burningion, please understand that when I say I'm well and truly on the side of freedom of information on this one, I don't just mean that in a casual way. I mean that to such an extreme that I was willing to change my focus, my career, my entire life around in order to fight for that belief beyond just posting an inflammatory topic on somebody else's web server.

That said: you're doing it wrong.

You're doing it so wrong.

Stop it.

It's counterproductive.

It's not helpful.

There are ways to fight this battle. Some of us are trying to do it the right way. The howler monkeys on the internet are extremely easy to ignore. That's all you're doing. You're not challenging anyone's preconceptions, you're not expanding anyone's mind, you're not making anyone uncomfortable. You're throwing a tantrum, and we've all seen it before.

What do you do Pev? I tried to look at your bio but apparently you're afraid bios steal souls :)

*laugh*!

Well, I'm a privacy geek, so I don't go into my background much. But since it's relevant...

I used be pretty successful in internet security, with a focus on internet law (i.e, forensics, how law affected response and recovery, etc). But due to cases like this, and like 2600's fight against DeCSS, all the RIAA bull@!$%#, the many insane copyright decisions that have come down (and some of the good ones -- see the anti-SLAPP work that's coming around lately), and some of the insanity that's happened to privacy law in the last eight years, I got more and more involved in the 'internet law' side of things.

So I quit my job in security, took the LSAT, and went back to school. I figure right now the law is being written by morons who have absolutely no experience with the internet, much less with practical internet security...and I'm trying to get my butt out there to change that.

So, uh, I'm going to be one of those damned IP lawyers you hate. But one of the good kind.

i'm writing a book about stealing things

I'll be sure to steal a copy or two from the bookstore :)

i would expect you to. it's called "steal this book part 2".

I developed a great deal of respect for Rhine Cyrus, but I really didn't see the point of some of his early "experiments," either. Once he got past that, I think he developed a useful persona, even if he did remain a bit, um, controversial.

well done post - In general I thought the NV (and users) response to the DIGG effect was pretty good

in a more efficient world we could have just used your post and moved on to better stuff - N1

Nicely done, PWT.

I have a feeling our friend burningion isn't coming back to explain himself. And while he could certainly rejoin with a different handle and pretend like none of this ever happened, I certainly hope that if he does, he takes the time to seriously reflect on what the Newsvine community is all about.

The fact is, he trolled, and we all bit because we are very protective of Newsvine and the community we all enjoy here. All we're doing now by continuing these discussions here is adding to his page hit counts, myself included.

My suggestion is that anyone wishing to discuss the whole issue around the DMCA and the MPAA and copyright and intellectual property and all that stuff should write an Newsvine-worthy article on it, so we can take that discussion there.

There are more than enough articles floating around here about how to behave on Newsvine, and I'm sure another isn't far behind. That'd be a good discussion, too.

But as for burningion's threads, until he shows up to defend himself or continue the discussion, it's my opinion that we should all just move on to greener pastures.

Of course, that's just my opinion. Carry on as you please, and have a great day!

Paul William Tenny let me bow to you Sir. Bravo, so thoughtfully, well done and such a beautiful thumping. Wow, people should consider the caliber of argument at Newsvine. You make me feel all smart and studly adding a vote to the comment. Times like this I wish I had a pocketful of extra votes to add too. Thank you!

Great note, Paul William Tenny.
Although I also doubt burningion will actually address the comment, thanks for setting it all out that way.
Too many people get into Newsvine thinking its another Digg, where a few power plays will shoot them to the top and they'll pwn the community. They don't stop and feel it out and realize the level of discussion and accountability here is far higher.